Is the four-year college degree losing its grip on Americans’ dreams?
Just as American colleges reach the demographic cliff — a steep decline in the number of 18-year-old prospective freshmen — higher education faces mounting pressure from all sides. President Donald Trump has targeted universities, slashing federal research funding and questioning their tax-exempt status – painting them as overpriced and out-of-touch bastions of liberalism. But skepticism about college isn’t just coming from the right. On the campaign trail, Democratic nominee Kamala Harris called out the country’s narrow focus on four-year degrees, urging more support for apprenticeships and technical programs.
The public seems to agree. A growing number of Americans — nearly a third — now say they have little or no confidence in college. That’s up more than 20 percentage points from a decade ago. Employers and states desperate for talent are dropping degree requirements for certain entry-level positions.
So in this episode of College Uncovered, co-hosts Kirk Carapezza and Jon Marcus look at the growing number of alternative pathways to good jobs. They explain that, while apprenticeship and internship are preeminent among these, there aren’t enough of them to meet demand.
Whether you’re a student, parent, or just interested in the future of higher education or the American economy, this final episode of our season explains what comes next.
Listen to the whole series
TRANSCRIPT
[Jon] This is College Uncovered. I’m Jon Marcus …
[Kirk] … and I’m Kirk Carapezza.
[sound of car on lift] And that’s a car going up on a lift at Benjamin Franklin Cummings Institute of Technology. We’re in the garage of this four-story brick building in downtown Boston, and students, including Jacqueline Rivera, are learning everything from tire repair to engine diagnostics.
[Jacqueline Rivera] Over here to the left is basically our engines class. This is where we kind of look at engines, identify the components, and we take them apart and put them back together.
[Kirk] After high school, Rivera planned to go to a four-year college and become a physician’s assistant. But there were some obstacles. She didn’t have a car of her own, and that was a problem.
[Jacqueline Rivera] It was a little bit far away, so I couldn’t really realistically get there.
[Kirk] And there was an even bigger issue faced by many college students.
[Jacqueline Rivera] It was way out of my budget.
[Kirk] So she tried a nearby community college, but she ended up dropping out. Health care just didn’t feel like the right fit. Unemployed, she remembered how much she loved tinkering on her dad’s old Ford Explorer.
[Jacqueline Rivera] As a kid, I’ve always wondered how cars work, and just really wanting to learn about the intricacies, how things are put back together.
[Kirk] Now, at 25 years old, she’s preparing for a career without taking the traditional path through college. She’s one of the only women in this new automotive technology apprenticeship program.
It’s one of countless routes to a good job that don’t require a traditional college education. Even some employers are on board, dropping college degree requirements on new job postings.
[Jacqueline Rivera] It just makes a lot more sense. I’m still learning the theory and everything while I’m in school, but I’m also able to have time to work in a dealership and learn from the people that have already been there and have already been in that field for many years.
[Kirk] This is College Uncovered, from GBH News and The Hechinger Report, a podcast pulling back the ivy to reveal how colleges really work. I’m Kirk Carapezza with GBH …
[Jon] … and I’m Jon Marcus of The Hechinger Report.
[Kirk] Colleges don’t want you to know how they operate. So GBH …
[Jon] … in collaboration with The Hechinger Report, is here to show you.
Today on the podcast: ‘Apprentices of the World, Unite!’
[Kirk] So, Jon, something you and I talk about a lot is whether the four-year college degree is kind of losing its grip on the American dream. Right now, just as colleges face a dramatic drop in traditional-age 18-year-olds — that’s the demographic cliff we’ve been exploring all season — it seems higher education is getting hit from every single direction.
[Jon] Yeah, including from the top. President Donald Trump has targeted universities, questioned their tax-exempt status, and portrayed them as expensive and out of touch. He slashed billions in federal research funding and said Harvard’s grants ought to go to trade schools instead.
[Kirk] College leaders and the left disagree, and they’re fighting this in and out of court. But there is political consensus on one issue surrounding higher ed: that a four-year degree is not the only route to a career.
[Kamala Harris] Good evening, Pennsylvania!
[Kirk] Here’s Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris at a campaign stop.
[Kamala Harris] For far too long, our nation has encouraged only one path to success: a four-year college degree. Our nation needs to recognize the value of other paths, additional paths such as apprenticeships and technical programs.
[Kirk] During the campaign, Harris pledged to double the number of apprenticeships.
[Jon] Yeah, Kirk, at a time when American politicians can’t agree on much, this is actually one area where there’s real bipartisan agreement. Remember, Trump pushed apprenticeships hard in his first term. Now, back in the Oval Office, he used his signature big black Sharpie to sign another of his many executive orders — this time aiming to create a million new apprenticeships and boost workforce training, even as his administration cut funding for them.
[Kirk] And it turns out the public likes the idea of having alternatives to colleges. Fewer Americans are choosing college straight out of high school. Perhaps that’s because 77 percent of adults say college is unaffordable, and many are questioning what they’re getting for their money. Nearly 80 percent of recent graduates say they learned more in their first six months on the job than during their entire four years of college.
[Jon] Yeah. Meanwhile, employers across the country, desperate for skilled workers — they’re starting to drop degree requirements for some entry-level jobs.
[Kirk] There are a lot of new options now, Jon. Trouble is, if you’re a student or a parent trying to help your kid figure out what comes after high school, that can make the process even more confusing than it was before. So where does that leave you?
This is our final episode in our season all about the demographic cliff. So as we stand on the edge of it, we’re looking at alternative pathways. And we’re asking what happens if and when the four-year college degree is no longer the default. We’ll also dig into why the U.S. lags behind other advanced countries in offering internships and apprenticeships, and what that means for students, and for colleges.
[Jon] And, of course, as always, we’ll ask the biggest consumer-facing questions for families right now: Should you or your kid consider something other than the traditional four-year college degree?
[Kirk] Okay, Jon, this podcast is all about college. But the truth is, college isn’t the only way to a good job anymore. More Americans are turning to apprenticeships and paid internships as a more affordable and direct path into the workforce.
But here’s the problem: Demand is outstripping supply, and colleges and employers have been pretty slow to catch up. Right now there are more students looking for these opportunities than there are slots to fill. Jon, listen to this: The U.S. Department of Labor says there are about 680,000 registered apprentices nationwide.
[Jon] Right, and that sounds like a lot.
[Kirk] It does, but that’s less than half a percent of the total U. S. workforce. Compare that to more than 19 million Americans who are enrolled in college — though that total is down from its peak in 2010. And even with historically low unemployment, students are still struggling to get work experience and earn a living wage. Nationwide, more than eight million college students say they want internships, but only about three million actually land one.
[Brandon Busteed] We’ve got a big gap between supply and demand here right now.
[Kirk] Brandon Busteed has seen that gap up close. He’s CEO of the company BrandEd, which focuses on industry experiences for students.
[Brandon Busteed] And we do that through Sotheby’s Institute of Art, Vogue College of Fashion, Manchester City Sports Business School and the School of The New York Times.
[Kirk] Here’s one of its ads.
[sound of BrandEd ad] My instructor was an editor at Vogue. Like, that was incredible. … Going out into the streets of New York, and you’re seeing where the industry takes place for real. … In the heart of the art market and the art world, you just learn hands-on and from experts who really know what they’re talking about.
[Kirk] And these are internships or apprenticeships?
[Brandon Busteed] It’s kind of a unique twist to internships and apprenticeships. As you know, those have some pretty specific nuances and definitions. What we’ve tried to do is take a lot of the value of those models and scale it for students and scale up more consistently around the quality. So all the programs we do are co-designed and co-taught by industry experts who are in their fields, and by educational experts.
[Kirk] Before launching his company, Busteed was at Gallup, where he advised college presidents,and he surveyed thousands of students and graduates. He says colleges saw the demographic cliff coming from a mile away, and still didn’t do enough to adapt and respond to what students were demanding: more work-based learning.
[Brandon Busteed] It’s a classic case of what I call higher ed hubris. You ask CFOs of colleges and universities what they think the prospectus is for the sector in the next five or 10 years. Most of them think it’s going to be really bad, really ugly, really disastrous, but then you go, ‘Oh, well, how do you think your own institution is going to do?’ And they’re, like, ‘Yeah, we’re going to be just fine.’
[Kirk] But now, the sector is beginning to realize that things are definitely not going to be just fine. Colleges desperate for students keep discounting heavily, but at the same time, sticker prices at the most selective schools keep going up. At Vanderbilt University, total costs are now estimated at nearly $100,000 a year, just as students have more viable alternatives.
[Brandon Busteed] Corporate routes where I can get my college degree while I’m working, companies that will train me and pay me to train and a whole host of third parties who are doing intensive short-form training that’s leading to pretty darn good jobs, high-paying jobs, jobs that pay family-sustaining wages.
[Jon] The demographic cliff — that decline in the number of 18-year-olds — it doesn’t only affect colleges. It affects employers, too. In some states, they’re begging for workers.
Take Maine, for instance. Its population is the oldest in the country. That makes it a sort of a canary in the coal mine. It has lots of retirees and not enough workers, like the whole country is about to experience. So Maine is investing in apprenticeships and internships. Those can get workers into jobs faster and more cheaply than college can, in industries like aquaculture.
[Kirk] Aqua what?
[Jon] Aquaculture, Kirk. Clearly, you’re not from Maine. That’s the breeding and harvesting of fish and shellfish.
We learned about knot-tying, some boating safety skills, a lot about commercial fishing and how it’s managed, how market prices are set, a lot about Maine fishing.
[Jon] That’s a video promoting the Aquaculture Pioneers Program, just one of several workforce initiatives run by an organization called Educate Maine. Hannah Greene manages workforce partnerships for the nonprofit.
[Hannah Greene] We have high school students. We have students that are starting college, or finishing up their college experience. We have participants that have been out of college for many, many years. So it’s really a broad range of folks that are interested in marine science, but want that hands-on, real-world work experience in an industry that’s really growing.
[Jon] Greene says Educate Maine is working across the state to connect students, schools and employers.
[Hannah Greene] So we have programs from aquaculture to automotive to health care, banking and finance, IT, a lot of your typical trades, carpentry, construction, HVAC. We really run the gamut.
[Jon] And students can earn certifications and credentials from the Maine Department of Labor. They’re recognized nationally. Maine recently hit a record number of apprentices — just over 3,000. Hannah Greene admits that’s still small, even in a state with a fairly small population. But at least it’s growing.
[Hannah Greene] The more work experience and experiential learning programs that we can provide for Mainers, especially younger Mainers, the more we’re building the foundation of Maine’s future economy. And businesses really thrive with a steady stream of trained workers.
[Kirk] Now, Jon, remember what we said earlier: 80 percent of recent grads say they’re learning more in the first six months on the job than they did in their entire four-year college experience.
[Jon] That’s a great advertisement for apprenticeship.
[Kirk] It is, Jon, but other countries are far ahead of us here. The U.K. and Australia have eight times more apprenticeships per capita than we do. So we reached out to Vinz Koller. He’s a vice president with Jobs for the Future, a national nonprofit focused on education and the workforce. Koller grew up in Switzerland, a country known for its apprenticeship system. It’s kind of like the global gold standard. Two thirds of young people there go into what’s called the dual pathway system, and one third take the academic route.
[Vinz Koller] What we notice, you know, when you grow up there, is that, you know, the kids that go the work-based learning pathway have more money, right from the get-go. They are the ones that graduate from the bicycle to a moped and later from a moped to a motorcycle and then from a motorcycle to a car, and we’re still, you know, on our bicycle going through university education. And that’s an interesting, you know, shift in perception right there, right? So it doesn’t have that stigma.
[Jon] That stigma, that hands-on training is something less than — that’s a big hurdle in the U.S. But remember, Abraham Lincoln didn’t go to law school. He apprenticed. But over time, our system shifted toward going to college, rather than learning on the job.
[Kirk] Some states have pushed back on that idea. Back in the 1990s, Wisconsin launched youth apprenticeships for high schoolers. And since 2015, others, like North and South Carolina, Indiana, Colorado, Washington and Maryland have all followed suit. While the national system is still fragmented, Koller says demand from families is high.
[Vinz Koller] Do you want to spend $50,000 on your education, perhaps, a year if you’re in a private school, or do you want to make $20,000 to $50,000 a year while you’re learning? That’s a pretty easy answer, I think, for most people.
[Kirk] Right now, Koller says, even though the opportunities are there, it’s too hard for students and families to find them, and it’s too hard for employers to convert into an apprenticeship model.
[Jon] So what needs to change?
[Kirk] Well, Koller says the federal government needs to cut all the red tape and just make it easier to launch apprenticeships. And then states need to expand them beyond the trades like construction and manufacturing to fields like accounting, healthcare and even journalism.
[Vinz Koller] We have to broaden it from, you know, the hardhat trades to the white-collar industries. And we have to make it easier for companies to start up apprenticeships.
[Kirk] That’s exactly what administrators are trying to do at Franklin Cummings Tech in Boston, where they’ve launched that automotive tech apprenticeship program. Aisha Francis is the president.
[Aisha Francis] The foundation of this institution was based in access to apprenticeship.
[Kirk] The school was founded thanks to a gift from one of America’s original apprentices — Benjamin Franklin. Back then, it was printmaking and candle-making. Today, it’s cars, construction and tech. That means you can apprentice to be a software engineer or an eye-care specialist. Francis herself majored in English, and she admits, for a long time, most academics and college leaders didn’t want to associate higher education with job training. But now colleges are desperate for students, and they’re joining in on the apprenticeship fad.
[Aisha Francis] Apprenticeships don’t necessarily have anything to do with college, but what we’re doing that’s different here is embedding the apprenticeship process with the degree-seeking process. So apprenticeship degrees becomes a mechanism by which college becomes more relevant and interesting and exciting.
[Kirk] And why is it so important to have the degree with the apprenticeship?
[Aisha Francis] Because for the population of students that we serve, most of whom are first-generation college students, many of whom are low income, there is a pride of attainment with a degree. And I don’t think we should continue to force youth to make a choice between pursuing technical education or trade education and going to college. And so it behooves us to find innovative ways for people to do both at the same time.
[Kirk] And as we approach the demographic cliff, everyone we talked to for this episode agreed. More schools will add apprenticeship degree programs as yet another new way to attract students.
Why aren’t people banging down these doors?
[Aisha Francis] Well, people are banging down our doors. I think the perception might be that people aren’t banging down the doors, but they are.
[Kirk] Enrollment is up at Franklin Cummings Tech, from about 550 four years ago to more than 1,000 today.
[Aisha Francis] And our goal is to be at 1,500. And we hope that the vast majority of those 1,500 students are taking advantage of apprenticeship and work-based learning opportunities.
[Kirk] Right now, Franklin Cummings Tech offers 10 apprenticeship degree programs. Francis tells me three have wait lists. One of those is automotive tech. Over two years, students in the program log 2,000 hours in a registered apprenticeship. They’re paid to learn, getting real hands-on experience and a clear path to a career.
Jacqueline Rivera, who we met at the beginning of this episode, is one of those students. She works 32 hours a week at a Subaru dealership — perhaps working on your car, dear podcast listener. And then she spends another 10 hours in class, earning her associate degree.
[Jacqueline Rivera] You get to learn the theory, but you also are hands-on. We have a lot of labs and we get that time to go over the theory and kind of put ourselves to work. And then with this apprenticeship, it will kind of be kind of like a real-world experience. And, you know, I’ll be at a dealership doing this stuff and applying myself.
[Kirk] And that means she’ll graduate with no debt and the skills, she hopes, to get a good job.
[Jon] Okay, so with this whole debate about the value of college, what should students and families actually do? Should you or your kid go the traditional two- or four-year college route or start looking into apprenticeships and other alternative paths?
[Kirk] It’s a great question, and one that we get all the time. I asked Vinz Koller from Jobs for the Future what we should tell people, and he told me, don’t lock into just any one track, and then see what fits your needs and your interests. So if you’re in high school, talk to your teachers and guidance counselors, and ask if any apprenticeship degree programs already exist in your area.
[Vinz Koller] This is not available everywhere yet, but it’s the kind of movie that’s coming to a theater near you. I think that is almost certain and in almost all parts of the country
[Kirk] Until then, keep your options open. Ask questions and talk to your family.
[Vinz Koller] We saw in North Carolina, for example, and in South Carolina, how, you know, they started offering this, first time around, 10 parents show up, next time around 100 parents show up because they hear, ‘Oh, wow, this is cool. You know, I might have my kid earn some money as opposed to just being a cost center in my household.’
[Kirk] Okay, now, college’s staunchest defenders point out there are still millions of jobs in this country that require four-year degrees, and higher ed leaders like Raj Vinnakota with the Institute for Citizens and Scholars says yes, we need to get young people ready for a career, but going to college also prepares students to contribute to society.
[Raj Vinnakota] How do we engage and prepare our students to be able to effectively engage in self-government? And how do we, as institutions of higher education, engage in our democracy? And frankly, we’ve kind of moved away from that and we need to bring that back in balance.
[Kirk] So, Jon, what do you make of that argument, and what are you going to be watching as this debate over the value of college continues?
[Kirk] Well, there’s a couple of important statistics to keep in mind. There’s still 58 million jobs in the United States that do require a college degree. So it’s not exactly black and white. Also, as you mentioned earlier, there is a lot more demand for apprenticeships than there is a supply of them. So it’s going to be really hard to scale up these programs fast enough for everyone to get apprenticeships.
[Kirk] So do you think that the best way to get this combination of the demographic cliff and growing demand for alternatives to colleges will finally force colleges to kind of lean into job training and focus on skills and career outcomes?
[Jon] Well, yeah, the operative word there is ‘finally.’ I think colleges are finally understanding their role in preparing their graduates for jobs, something that they haven’t historically thought about, or they’ve dismissed. And so, yeah. I think you’ll see more explicitly career-focused education in colleges. And I think you’ll see them trying to kind of catch up with and compete back against these new alternatives, like apprenticeships and internships.
[Kirk] This is College Uncovered. I’m Kirk Carapezza from GBH …
[Jon] … and I’m Jon Marcus from The Hechinger Report.
This episode was produced and written by Kirk Carapezza …
[Kirk] … and Jon Marcus.
This episode was edited by Jonathan A. Davis.
Our executive editor is Jenifer McKim.
Our fact-checker is Ryan Alderman.
Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott.
All of our music is by college bands. Our theme song and original music is by Left Roman, out of MIT.
Mei He is our project manager, and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.
[Kirk] College Uncovered is made possible by Lumina Foundation. It’s produced by GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX.
Thanks so much for listening.
More information about the topics covered in this episode:
Use a federal government website to find an apprenticeship.
Read more about how some employers are dropping degree requirements for jobs.
Read about how demand for outstrips the supply of apprenticeships …
… and internships.
Read Jobs for the Future’s plan to modernize America’s apprenticeship system.
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